Chris Whelan

[music] Hello I'm Greg Bonnell and welcome to MoneyTalk Live which is brought to you by TD Direct Investing. every they'll be joined by guests from across TD only here you will see many of them. Will take you through what is moving the markets and answer questions about investing. Coming up on today's show: we will discuss whether there is still a chance of a Fed to pivot away from the supersized rate hikes we've been seeing. TD Securities' Chris Wheelan joins us. And in our education segment Hiren Amin will help us find out how to learn about interest rates on the WebBroker platform. You can email us anytime@moneytalklivent.com or fill out the viewer response box. Right here in WebBroker. Now let's get on didn't on the action on the news. TSX down to the tune of 60 points about 1/4 of a percent. A bit of push and pull when it comes to the sectors. Yesterday was a rough one for the energy space. We are seeing health and technology names moving higher in Toronto. Right now, you do of the big three: financials, energy and materials all in negative territory. Pretty hard to get a positive read on the top line when you have the three heavyweights trading negative. Let's check in on Enbridge. Still seeing some weakness in the oil and gas. Of course the pipeline name, 54, 78. Up to the tune of about 2% of the down side right now. I want to check in on Shopify. Right now, holding in positive territory of about $0.67 a share. About 1.6%. In the broader market, the S&P 500 is found its way into positive territory right now.… And in the NASDAQ, south of the border, it has found its way into positive territory. Still pretty modest about up 1/5 of a percentage as well. Let's check on Julie. They sell pet products online. The company is cutting its sales. Saying customer growth is slowing. The stock down to the tune of almost 8% at this hour. $34 and $0.04-$0.09 a share. And that's market update. Markets are looking to find their footing after a three-day slide following Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell much-anticipated speech at Jackson Hole. Joining us now to discuss whether a Fed pivot away from rate hikes is officially off the table and what's going on in the bond market, is Chris Wheelan, Senior Canada Rates Strategist at TD Securities. Chris, welcome to the program. >> Thank you. >> Let's start with the big question of the Summer. Jerome Powell just threw cold water and said it will be a tough fight. How are the markets anticipating, interpreting specifically the bond market. >> I think the bond market, ahead of time, we can retire into the… The equity market is still digesting that aggressive, hawkish tone that came out of there. I think the bond market is telling us that whether or not the central banks are going to come out with strong hawkish footing, which I think is strong now with Jackson Hole, the bond market is telling us this pain is not in a last that long or something will change in the economy because the bond yield market is around 3.1% on the US tenure. The highs are around 3 1/2%. We are hanging in there. The bond market has an immediate reaction posted Jackson Hole. So I think that tells us the pain won't last for as long as we think or the economy will rollover or the data will soften, inflation will soften. So I think the, even though the general consumer might be reading into that Jackson Hole as a scary moment, I think you don't know what we are bracing for. But I think they won't be able to maintain that hawkish for long. >> Do we bring the word pivot back into the discussion? Or is that were becoming transitory as well? Not useful anymore to what is happening in the markets? >> I think the "pivot" has evolved to when they are done. So the pivot is over now. They're not going to pivot. They're talking about when they are done. And what we look like on a forward basis. I think the inflation looks, the bond market is telling us that inflation will start softening and I think we all are hoping for the best scenario on the soft landing. Sustain inflation… When we are pricing in there, we are definitely pricing in… The pivot is gone and it is more about when we end. I think the bond market is saying that the hiking cycle is ending sooner than later. Before the spring of next year. >> A fascinating thing obviously with central banks when they take the action on rates here as they have aggressively to the upside recently. Or to the downside at the end of the pandemic. Were supposed to have a bit of time before that that makes us more fulfilled. We have had some supersized, jumbo sized… I don't even know what words to use anymore. Jumps of 75 basis points or 100 basis points in this country. That's can take some time is it? At some point the central banks take a look and say "let's see how this continues to flow through the economy" > I think were already starting to see the signs of the impacts starting to be felt. The built-up inventories… I think, today we had Canadian GDP, the flash estimate shows a 0.1% contraction in the coming month. I think that the data is starting to soften overall. I think that's where the bond market is getting its key extrapolating forward. That these hikes are working and they are bringing inflation expectations down and they are contributing to slowing in overall consumer activity in general. >> Of course, Jerome Powell saying a likely fight to try to bring inflation back down to where they like it to be. The sweet spot is getting within the range of 2%. How tough of a fight is that? People are saying they've seen the inflation rate cool but that last mile might be the hardest one. >> I think that's the problem. We will go into an uncomfortable zone word takes time to get down. So we expect that inflation is peaked around 6% in the US… And we will move into the five area and then the three handle in Q2. First quarter of next year should feel okay if the bond market is correct. We still have inflation at an uncomfortable level for central banks. Well above the 2% Target. Should have clear signs of growth deterioration. So I think first quarter is that uncomfortable moment. This is why rates stay at around 3 1/2, 3.7% level. … If our forecast hold throughout Q1 and Q2. . . . >> That seems to believe the moment that will test the resolve of central bankers. We see, as he said, a slowing economy, jobless numbers start to rise… Can they hold the resolve look in the face of that and say "we realize we inflicted pain but we have to continue to let you feel that pain on this mission to break down inflation"? >> Unfortunately I think that pain, it's easier to say "pain" than to feel pain… We will see how that feels in the first quarter of next year. I think to your point, the pivot, anyone holding onto the notion that the central banks are done hiking, that is gone. I think in Canada, we have market consensus 75 beats ahead, they will go 50 to the next few meetings in the US. Both cases, you have 100 beeps of hikes at least in Canada and the US in the coming months. So that pivot notion of them ending soon, is ending soon. 100 beeps is not small. These are big hikes so that pivot notion is gone. We will talk about what we do at 100 beeps from now. >> It's hard to predict what will happen in the future but I feel it we have a decade or more since the financial crisis of central banks sort of always being front and centre with monetary policy. Can we get to a point where we have a normalized regime of interest rates? Do even know what normal is to the cost of borrowing? >> We have monetary policy figured out no, we think. We have a little bit a little bit and then 2008 happens and… I think unfortunately we are very much still stuck in the boom and bust cycles. It would be really nice if we had a soft landing this time. But we really hit the pedal full on during COVID. Because we saw that 2008 type scare of a great recession and we realize that was a bit too hard and we didn't know at the time. Now we have to hike to a degree of interest rates that we haven't seen in a long time. We were just getting used to zero. We all thought zero was the norm. We were just start at zero. >> We will pay for money again. >> I think of… It's hard when we are talking about hikes, the higher you hike, the shorter the distance would be between the time you cut again. So, I think for now, the bond market has been extremely volatile and that's been a phenomenon we've been dealing with for the last, since COVID emerged. So that bond market volatility is kind of telling you that it might be a way in time before we understand calm interest rates. I think we have to deal with cycles for a good amount of time. >> Fascinating stuff and a great start to our discussion today. We'll get to your questions about the economy and interest-rate with Chris Wheelan in just a moment. you can email us anytime@moneytalklive@td.com. Shares of Bed Bath & Beyond are in the spotlight today. That as the retailer announces store closures, layoffs and a share offering. The news comes as Bed Bath & Beyond forecasted 26% plunge in sales for the second quarter. The company's been struggling with its debt load, and is also announcing and has secured $500 million in new financing. Bed Bath & Beyond has seized outsized prices swings in recent weeks is again renewed attention from retail investors on chat groups. The higher price of gasoline in the spring and early Summer help boost revenue at Alimentation Couche Tard. The convenience store operator handed in an earnings beat for its most recent quarter. The operator of the Couche Tard and Circle K brands is pointing the higher prices at the pumps. Also merchandise sales at its stores. Couche Tard did note, however, that soaring gasoline costs in the work from home trend did weigh on demand and gasoline sales for the period. Social media companies SNAP says it will lay off 1/5 of its workforce as it navigates a slowdown in digital advertising. In a memo to employees, CEO Evan Spiegel says while revenue growth in the current quarter is up 8%, that still well below expectations. SNAP is also shuttering some projects including a plan foray into mobile games. … The S&P 500 now trying to find its way into modest territory. We are back now with TD Securities' Chris Wheelan taking your questions about the economy and interest rates. Right out of the gate, how many more rate hikes from the Bank of Canada can we expect? >> On the bank of Canada side we have the September meeting coming up soon. We expect 75 beeps, hikes in that meeting. I think that's pretty close to market price right now. Consensus call. And then, the additional hike we have is in October. We have another 25 beeps. We think that's when they are done. We still think, given how high inflation is that there is still a bit of risk to the upside to our forecast overnight. But the probabilities when we weigh them all, that is our view. So another 100 beeps from here to take the overnight rate to 3 1/2% by the end of October. That's our call for Canada. >> And overnight rate of 3 1/2%, is that the place where we will be able to restrict the economy and our desire to want to participate in the economy? To bring inflation under control? Canadian households were highly leveraged heading into this. all the debt we are hearing, then boom, what we've been waiting for. >> I think in the end of the day, it's probably true that they can't be that aggressive with us for that long. I think what they're trying to do is be that aggressive with us and to correct the economy to reset. So this is a reset hiking cycle. This is not where we see long term rates over the coming years. We see hikes, we see cuts coming next year and the long-term average overnight rate, realizing lower than when we are going to end up. So it's kind of about the short term pay. It's true, we can't, with the household debt, the prices of homes these days, the new buyer entering the market insisting that kind of interest rate level, service and cost, very likely it is not sustainable in the longer term. But is it sustainable shorter-term? That corrective behaviour that slows everything down, I think that's what this is all about. It's all about making a blunt stop to the economic activity. > We know obviously the global influence of the US Federal Reserve. We've seen in the past, the Bank of Canada break with one of the Fed is doing based on our own conditions. It sounds like the Bank of Canada, at some point next year might be breaking from the Fed. Saying they have a different condition and they might have to go down a different path. >> That basically is our thesis. Canada is biased to lower interest rates than the US because of the household debt to dynamics in Canada. So basically, if something's going to break, it should break in Canada first or we should be able to handle the high overnight rate for as long as the US or be able to push it as high as the US well. So that basically is how that story kind of contrasts with Canada versus the US. However, we are both in corrective mode now. Like you said earlier, we have to kind of wait for that impact to be felt. So Canada should have that higher sensitivity and feel that sooner. However, we are waiting for that to realize right now. Basically waiting to see with a high probability that that's having an impact. >> Interesting stuff. Another question focused on Canada. What is your outlook for the Canadian dollar? >> We are keeping it pretty simple. It's basically ranged about a dollar 30. The risk attitude is been negative. That has helped support the dollar. If the risk turned around and became more positive through the loonie, that's basically striving to behave your way of that 130 level in dollar. Where the extreme scenario was on that currency, if Canada did realize extreme housing downturn, the Canadian dollar would feel that pain. That would be where we expect that. We don't expect that to happen but that is where the extreme move lies. >> Always fascinating when you talk with the Canadian dollar. Clearly a petrol currency. And in these times, moving parallel just like train tracks and in the price of crude shot up hundred $120 a barrel. The Canadian dollar did do all that much. was there a decoupling there? All that momentum we saw the energy trade, with the Canadian dollar? >> I think the business investment environment has changed on the commodity front. And I think that the sensitivities to… We still have been a positive to the sector. Our economy is better set up to avoid a recession from a positive commodity market. The degree of that sensitivity is less than it was in the past. That's why that slowly broken down over the years. The contrast in that industry relative the to the US and in general. >> Let's get to another question. We touched on briefly in our discussion. Maybe a deeper dive on your view on housing during this rising rate environment? We talked with the fact that it takes a while for interest rate hikes or cuts to play through an economy but it seemed to affect the housing market pretty immediately. >> I think it did. I think at the end of the day, the way prices were rising in February of this year, we were at variable 1.1, 1.2% variable rates. The way prices were rising, it was kind of easy, it was easier to convince yourself of price at that mortgage level. Versus now, were looking at 5% variable, 5% fixed. These are big numbers on the large prices of housing that we have. So, I can totally understand how that would have a consumer reaction as a payment reaction… I think now, at the end of the day, Canada has kind of been a popular story to believe that the housing market was expected. We have the most instructive population growth story and developed economies globally. So that population growth is a huge buffer for the housing market in Canada. Right now we have low sales and we arguably have, based on our forecast, based on what the bond market is telling us, largely peaked fixed rates right now. So if fixed rates can come down in the next year's spring market and population growth story continues to realize, that can provide a buffer to the housing market which is a very quick correction. So we are constructive longer-term and we don't see a dire scenario for the Canadian housing market. So so part of our view but it's an interesting risk to realize. But on the housing market, at the end of the day, the higher rates is a powerful thing that factors into your payment. And I think, right now, were getting a lot of questions on the payment resets from variables. The rate is increased so much that negative advertising mortgages, you need to increase the payment. I think there are a lot of concerns in the market right now about how that plays out. And I think that has a lot of, we are getting a lot of questions on how that is creating an uneasy situation. So I think it's a bit of a "wait and see". We understand the fear out there or it we understand the pricing but we do think that longer-term, that population growth in five years, rates being flat to lower, likely lower based on our forecast, should provide some support. >> Fascinating analysis in the housing market. As always make sure you do your own research before doing or making investment decisions. We'll get back in just a moment's time with more questions with Chris Wheelan. You can get in touch with us any time by sending us an email, MoneyTalkLive@td.com. Now let's get to our educational segment. We talked a lot about different topics and now joining us for more on WebBroker is Hiren Amin, from TD Direct Investing. Walk us through it's available on the platform. >> Absolutely Greg it's a pleasure as always. We've been talking about interest rates and we know that the way for central banks to be able to control the money supply and put a curve on inflation, we know in the last meeting that the central bank had in July, they had that jumbo sized super hike of a full percentage or 100 basis points. Let's see how we can actually see what is forecasted to keep track of that. So, in WebBroker, we will click on "research". We will go now on the "reports" section. Most of the data will be found in economics page here. So we will scroll down to the economics page and it will open up, this window here, we will load this up here… Now we will enter our TD economics and we will go to "forecast". From the forecast we want to see the latest financial forecasts that are coming up. If we click on here, this will bring up the data that we want. Amongst our discussion for today, we are keen on looking at interest rates. But you can find prevailing economic data within here as well. You can also notice that they have this overnight rate which is what the focus is for both the Canadian and US markets. They have a full rate table as well of able here which we can use if we go through there. >> Let's take a bit of a deeper dive here Hiren. . . The central banks, they rose up to this point but "that's not my data " what are the central banks have in terms of their overnight rates and overseeing in the world? >> That's a good question. So this overnight rate that we see, this is basically for central banks of any nation, in Canada, we called the Bank of Canada, in the states it is the US Federal Reserve. We call it the "Fed". Use this as a benchmark for the bank lending institution. We want to make that distinction that this rate is not actually the prime rate. It is the rate in which major financial institutions lend and borrow to each other. So we can see in Canada, currently based on the last meeting, we are 2 1/2% of that on both overnight lending rate both in the US and Canada. Now, these rates are really there to enforce and enact monetary policy which is a central tool to really curb down inflation that we see. Now, just to define inflation for everyone, we know that this is a persistent increase in level consumer prices where you can also think of that as a decline in purchasing power of money. Now, usually inflation is not a bad thing as long as it is within control. The central banks of a Target range. They usually want to keep it at about 2% or a rain between 1 to 3%. If it falls outside of those normal levels, were sitting at about 7% or somewhere there in Canada right now with the US hitting at about 8% in the last quarter, the central banks are going to exert this and be able to raise this overnight rate. What that effect does is it makes it more expensive for those being institutions to borrow and lend to each other. That will, in turn, trickle down to us consumers. That will make boring for us expensive which, prime rates are used and set against this overnight rate. So what this does is it discourages borrowing which in turn, will discourage hopefully spending on the consumer and business side and, this will hopefully curb down the demand to bring down the inflation and to control the levels. The central bank has a meeting again, as Chris mentioned, in September. So that's one to keep an eye on. It will be ending on the third quarter there. The predicted ranges to go up another 50 to 75 basis points. We might continue that tone in the next few days as well. So we will look and see what is in store there in the next while. >> Thank you so much to Hiren Amin. >> My pleasure again Greg. > Hiren Amin senior client education instructor at TD Direct Investing. Before we get back to your questions for Chris Wheelan, a reminder of how you can get in touch with us. You can send us an email any time at moneytalklive@td.com or use the question box right below the screen here at WebBroker. Just writing your question and hit "send". We'll see if one of our guests can get you the answer you need right here at MoneyTalk Live. Back now with Chris Wheelan and take your questions from the economy and interest rates. Let's get back to them. Here's one coming in: how bad a recession might be headed for? Will it be worse in Canada versus in the US? >> I think on the recession side, if it was worse in Canada, it's if we need to hold interest rates higher for a longer period of time. It goes right back to what we talked about earlier, that dense sensitivity. So if the rates for some reason, the inflation expectations continue to remain high, they have to go even higher than we think of the overnight rate. Or they have to sustain at that level for an uncomfortable period of time. I think that you increase the substantial risk to the Canadian economy. Because of those sensitivities. I think that is the dividing point there. Again, we have relatively strong commodity backdrops this time. We still do get a benefit in Canada from that. At the moment, we have a relatively soft landing here in Canada and the US for now. So the, and we have the population growth on our side in Canada. I think it's that kneading for interest rates to stay high is the material divide that would divide the economies to a substantial degree. >> In a soft landing scenario, imagine there is a bit of pain for the labour market but not an excessive amount of pain, how does actually play out? In the end Canadians worry about the recession, they worry about their jobs, their livelihoods. >> I think that is the pain dynamic that we will have to see how that actually feels when, like you were saying earlier, it's easy to say "let's have some pain" than to actually feel some pain. In Canada, I think there's the reason that there is a soft landing dynamic is because of the labour market being so strong. Generally a recession means large amounts of layoffs. We can't have layoffs but is it to the same degree of previous recessions? We had an interesting anecdote this morning where businesses have to sell off their inventory to close down because they couldn't get enough employees. I don't know what that anecdote is. It's a tight labour market but that is this inflationary because if to sell off your inventory. It's a confusing time. None of that historical look back to point to. But I think at the end of the day, a stronger labour market is a buffer. Population growth as a buffer. So interest rates are a tool and that's why they are moving higher two comments down. But I think the, the notion that we do get layoffs is what is going to happen. Is there a "no layoffs " setting in a soft landing? The answer is no. So the idea, to answer that, the end the idea is not dramatic but still soft. >> Let's take a look at the markets halfway through the lunch time. To the downside, pretty hard and get some momentum on the top line number. 19,435. 77 points a little shy of half a percentage. South of the border, interesting to see that upside momentum going. It was pretty modest to the upside of top the show and now pretty modest at the downside. Still trying to find their way, the S&P 500, after three days. Down just shy of two points. Let's get back to your questions right now. This is when we are getting a lot of the program considering the times that we are living in. "Can we get Chris's thoughts on GICs in this environment?" >> I think you've had bond yields trending on higher which means bonds and returns are trending negative. You have the GICs which are shorter-term vehicles. You have the guarantee and they are offering this compelling interest rate. When you look at the bonds and returns beside it, it feels like a pretty easy decision when you look at it like that. I think, on a go forward basis, the GICs of in the right thing to do. On a go forward basis, I think when we are talking about this recession, we are talking about soft landings are recessions, that generally means yields pressure lower, not higher. So when we are talking about if it will pivot or not, we are starting to see the end of this hiking cycle. That's where you start to get to an environment where that is constructed for bonds. So if you're bond fund returns, it can start to turn to the negative to quite positive quite fast. That's where the bond funds can become quite appealing on a "go forward" basis. We are starting to see negative outflows in both US and Canada, bond funds were quite strong. That is starting to taper in the past few weeks. So I think the investor attitude will probably shift away from GICs, back to bond funds as the return profile comes. If the inversion in the bond fund, sorry, in the bond curve is correct… The market is correct in pricing that we are getting close to the end of this hiking cycle, we are talking about "soft paying" or "deep recession", I think that is again, bond fund is constructive and I think investors are going to be growing increasing in the way they look at bond funds and I think that will be the dynamic to play with. The GICs has been a good place to be with the increased yield that we had versus historical negative bond returns. So I complete the understand it. I think that dynamic probably changes on the "go forward" basis. > Maybe risk the fact that the GIC at some point, "did you buy one, two, five?" Your money is there. It's that product and it's not available to be put in? >> I think given the volatility interest market, I would give her shorter-term GICs right now to take advantage of potential opportunities open up in the stock market or for those returns that might be more robust in bond funds on a "go forward" basis. >> Getting back your questions for Chris Wheelan and just moments time. Always make sure you do your own research before making any investment decisions. A reminder that you can get in touch with us any time. If you have a question about investment, our guests are eager to d here what's on your mind. You can send us an email anytime at moneytalklive@td.com or use the question box. >> Original breakdown report came on how the labour markets look for the world's economy. Joining us for all the details as money talks Anthony Okolie. Anthony. >> Despite growing recession fears, US markets continue to improve through the first half of 2022. In the latest July report, another example of just how strong the US labour market is right now. US July job gains actually doubled expectations and bounced back to pre-pandemic levels. The unemployment rate and a 50 year low at 3.5%. Now, when we break it down by region, the Southeast or more specifically the lower South Atlantic region leads the East Coast recovery. Florida and South Carolina both saw job gains growth surge in June and July. While Georgia is slowly catching up to the national level. All three states have also had experienced higher payroll levels now than they did before the pandemic. When we look at the upper South Atlantic region, North Carolina is leading the way there with this unemployment rate falling to its lowest level in more than 20 years. Meanwhile, when you take a look at the mid-Atlantic region, that area is still recovering from the pandemic. With job markets in New York and New Jersey still not yet fully recovered from the pandemic. Finally, when we look at the East Coast, that region continues to recover very slowly. Despite seeing some improvements in their unemployment rates, rates in Connecticut, Massachusetts and Maine all remain above pre-pandemic levels. The bottom line, according to the economic stats is despite a strong national labour market, there still evidence to suggest that the job growth was starting to slow in the second quarter. Greg? >> Let's talk about that outlook going forward. We have in our hands right now… The path forward, obviously the Fed is very interested. How does it look state to state? >> The TD economics expects the job growth to slow down. In the August jobs report is coming up on Friday with expectations of 300,000. That is well below the 528,000 jobs that were added back in July. But, currently when we look at the region, the fastest slowdown seems to be felt in the New England region. … The lower South Atlantic holding up better heading into the third quarter. The second half rather. >> Great stuff as always. Thanks Anthony. >> My pleasure. >> Money talks Anthony Okolie. For the TSX comp we are seeing continued weakness although not the same as yesterday. , let's take a look at TC energy now. Down. Alimentation Couche Tard, we told you at the top to show how the late spring early Summer, those high prices paying at the pumps as a motorist did help… There was a limit of demand and sales volumes came under pressure more so in the United States. Let's take a look at the S&P 500 and see what is happening in the states right now. I'm going to call this "flat" lesson appointed downside, investors try to make sense of the path forward. We are back now with Chris Wheelan from TD Securities. Let's get back to questions. What's your take on the bond market right now? Is it looking a little more attractive? Then perhaps we have lived through so far this year? >> On the bond market, we are basically battling the central bank takes that are coming through what we talked about earlier. We have 100 beeps and hikes coming through in Canada. We have a little bit more in the US than we expected by the end of the year. 145 beeps. The natural hikes are way on the bottom market. So that's a natural phenomenon. However, we now have this look ahead forecast at the bond market is building. We have the curve in version and we have bond yields off the highs. About 40 beeps from the highs and the 10 year period both in Canada and the United States. I think the bond market, the end of the day, like we were talking earlier, is telling us that the hiking cycle is coming to an end in the coming months. It is going to inflict some sort of pain on the economy and we are going to soft and. The environment that we are softening, that is constructive for bonds, so we are moving potentially sooner than later to a constructive environment for bonds where the bond market can offer quite attractive returns. We have investors, we have large institutions, that will naturally rebalance into bonds with the stock first bond mechanism. The stock is becoming weak with a strong performance was pushing more money into bonds. That was helpful in the short term. Longer-term, a lot of balanced fund type mandates for overweight equities over the past couple of years because at the end of the day, allocating money to 0% bonds wasn't so favourable. That was the right trade. They were smart to do that. But now, we are entering an environment of uncertainty and we are in an environment of higher interest rates. So bonds are now more appealing and a broader portfolio, they are more appealing and that 60/40 type mix. And uncertainty and slow growth is generally bond positive. So we are entering a more constructive zone from an institutional flow perspective and from an economic perspective. So we are moving to more constructive on bonds, arguably the most constructive we have been in over year. >> Interesting stuff. Before we let you go Chris, we are one week away from the next central-bank decision in this country. The Central Bank of Canada as we discussed early in the show. Viewers are asking what you expect out of that meeting next week? >> I think at the end of the day, I think they will hikes 75 beeps. Quite frankly we need to address the inflation environment. They need to leave their options open and say as little as possible on a "go forward" basis. We have to see how this all realizes. This is a newer environment. We don't have the historical Pres. for how this will work out. I think leave the options open, deliver the 75 beeps. I think it should be a less eventful, not such an eventful meeting. > Great stuff. Pleasure having you here. >> Thank you. >> Chris Wheelan, Senior Canada Rates Strategist at TD Securities. Stay tuned tomorrow for this lineup: a reminder also you can get a head start emailing us questions email us moneytalklive@td.com. That's all the time we have thanks very much for joining us and see you tomorrow. [music]